voiig in education

Just love our phonetically spelt language 🙂

As reported elsewhere, the children have been exploring Education City today. So far I’ve discovered that Big likes scoring well, and she doesn’t like doing anything where she might score badly. We’ve got a date with some cuisenaire rods to work through the whole ‘times’ thing tomorrow.

I’m really not sure about scoring high on tests as motivation for learning. Brings me back round in a circle to a conversation that started on Tues night – I went to a course on montessori run at the children’s school. As might be expected, there was a fair bit of discussion that went on around certain aspects of montessori teaching, and one part that seemed to cause most unease amongst most of the parents was the lack of reward or punishment. Montessori focuses on saying ‘thank you’ rather than well done, and stays away from the sticker/certificate model of reinforcement. Several of the parents wanted to know why the children would bother doing anything then, as it’s well known that praise is the way to go. It was difficult to get across the idea of intrinsic motivation – the self assessed pride in a job well done, versus external pats on the head where someone else values your work for you.

Oddly, this sort of debate has echoes in a situation at work atm, where I’ve a team member who just doesn’t seem to have any umph right now. Can’t help feeling that part of it is that lack of internal drive just to do it right.

So back to Big, who on some levels is a complete perfectionist, and on others just lives for a word of praise. It’s a difficult balance. I do think children do want approval from parents, but at the same time, I firmly believe that internal motivation is one of the best things that they can gain from their childhood. If you are always waiting for the world to validate your existence, you could wait an awfully long time.

I’ll wait and watch with education city – when it comes down to it, Big wants to score well for herself, so I guess that’s still internal.

Small really rather enjoyed the games, but I get the impression the nursery level isn’t going to stretch him overly. He doesn’t seem bored with it yet though.

In other news, I mainly slept all day. Does feel like I’m working and sleeping my life (and my children’s childhoods) away atm. The vicious circle is that I’ve never got any time or energy to do the things that might make it possible to move, thus gaining some time and energy back. 🙁

Right, Tim’s fallen asleep on the floor now, so I’m going to go make him a coffee and very shortly take myself back off to bed. Think I’ve been up and about for about 6 hours so far today.

ps about Education city – why can’t we get into the Spanish section? Anyone?


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Comments

24 responses to “voiig in education”

  1. cos its not live yet, but is about to be, shortly followed by german – i emailed thme and asked!
    SB likes external pats, so do i. that may even be why i chose my career?

  2. Ah, right, did wonder.
    Hm, not saying external pats are bad, just that there has to be a certain amount of internal motivation as well?

  3. yes, there does, but I just am not comfortable with not giving praise i guess. but i think it can be overdone, and we are social creatures, and praise is societal feedback which is to some extent hardwired now in the brain-mind evolution to be something we do aspire to

  4. I often wonder whether I over-praise, but then I praise so indiscriminately TBH that I can’t really see it affecting any specific outcomes. Foof for thought though. Sounds like an interesting meeting.

  5. Pet hate. People who ignore their children unless they are doing something wrong, and then wonder why they are so badly behaved.
    I think praise is extremely important, children are coded to seek positive feedback, but if you forget to tell your children when they are doing things you don’t like, they can be forgiven for assuming that it is ok to carry on. Balance, that’s the thing. 🙂

  6. Hmmm… I don’t like to think that I give ‘praise’ – it makes me feel like someone who sits in judgement. I prefer to think that I appreciate what they’ve done. I try to make sure that I give our kids much the same responses as I give to Dani. That means thanking them when they do something kind or considerate, telling them when I like the things they make – and so on. I don’t like the whole business of special kiddy rewards like stickers and wallcharts.
    I reckon paying attention to the wonderful things they do is worth a lot more to them than a sticker. Also, withdrawal of things like stickers and certificates can quickly become a punishment and then the whole thing turns into a stick rather than a carrot.

  7. I’m with Allie, I’d far rather the children felt proud of themselves than worried about others opinions. I hate extrinsic ‘rewards’ like sticker charts (although I’m prone to the odd bribe here and there 😉 I have a relative who offers praise so often and for such trivial things it feels patronising and also dilutes any real meaning, conversly I think never being told ‘well done’ or ‘thank you’ can be equally damaging. The ideal is knowing they have done well and getting the glow of someone else recognising it and commenting too, I guess.
    I also struggle with the difference between praising effort and recognising something innate and stating it as fact eg ‘you’re really good at that’ vs ‘you’re trying really hard at that’ – which is more valuable? It’s easy to think that something which requires effort is worth more praise but actually you wouldn’t want to squash or underplay a geninue talent either.
    I think we all like applause to a degree but I wouldn’t want my kids to live for it – agree with Tim, balance is the key.

  8. Charts have their place in the whole thing. We currently have one for each of the girls. It lists a number of things for them to achive well in (they decided the items themselves). When they do they get to colour a star in and I put £1 in a jar. When all stars are complete there will be £500 in each jar and that will pay for their adventure holiday in August. This works as they feel that they have earn’t every penny to pay for their own holiday, it also works for me as I wouldn’t be able to save a grand any other way!
    We all went out to dinner last night to say thank you to each other for a really pleasant week at home.
    Pea is going for an extra ski session later on today as her instructor thinks she has potential, so we are giving her the extra chance to do so.
    Small verbal rewards throughout the day are good, I can’t function without them! I like to be told I look nice, dinner was good, I doing well etc etc. I do the same to the children. Something as simple as putting a picture on the wall fills them with pride and they love to show everyone who comes to the house. Buzz loves to play his games and get to the next level, I have no interest at all, I’d rather watch paint dry but he is so pleased that I ‘wow’ and ‘woohoo’ for him. This morning I had to sit and be shown around all three of their zoo’s on Roar, again boring for me and no big deal but vital to them that I looked and praised.
    When they do something I dislike it is a much shorter lived conversation, but it is a conversation that happens.

  9. Each to their own, I guess. But I would just feel so awkward putting stickers on a chart – like they were going for employee of the month at a burger chain. If they set the whole thing up themselves then I wouldn’t mind but I’d actually be waiting for them to rip the thing down and refuse to let it dictate their destiny! Then I’d be proud 😉

  10. No idea on where i stand on all that, so won’t try. Was very amused to discover that Maddy gets 100% on all games on EC, because if she makes a mistake she starts the whole thnig over again immediately!

  11. I’m with Allie and Nic on this since I read Punished by Rewards about 4 years ago.
    Punished by Rewards

  12. Well we have 24 members of staff and they love working for rewards! Pay checks and bonuses. The big prize at the end of last year was a week in New York plus a grand spending money.
    I don’t read books telling me how to bring up my children.

  13. I think the reason I feel so uncomfortable about reward charts (and so on) is the fact that I would feel like the boss in some work place – and not myself. I have never been, and never want to be, a manager or a boss of any sort. If I get to give out rewards then I also get to withold them – sit in judgement. I want my kids to know when THEY feel satisfied with something they’ve done – not when someone else does.
    We do pay family members for doing housework, so I guess we recognise money as a motivator to some extent. But we all get paid the same rate – and everyone is responsible for recording their own work on the jobs list. If I sweep the floor I get 10p – if Leo does it he gets 10p. No-one is the boss, it is not a competition, and there is no winner.

  14. “If I had 10p for every time I’d swept our floor…!” 😆

  15. What, you mean you’d have 20p? 🙂

  16. A couple of links for geeks like Jax and Tim (although others might find them interesting too):
    Incentive pay considered harmful
    The identify management method

  17. Yep, interesting and informative 🙂

  18. ‘it implies that they are not independent enough to work unless they are going to get a cookie; and it’s insulting and demeaning.’
    Yep, that’s my feeling. Personally I think that if my boss thought I would do my job better in erturn for a trip to New York that I would feel pretty insulted 😉

  19. Yeah, but loads of companies do work like that, and clearly do pretty well! I’m thinking of places that do fantastic rewards for top salesperson, etc. You’re not competing against anyone in your job, there’s no one who’s trying to do it better than you. If there was a competition, a good prize would make it even more interesting 😉

  20. I love joelonsoftware, great links there Bob.
    Alison, I can only assume that selling attracts a different type of person – the bank had very different reward structures for branch staff to IT, and the annual performance reviews were mainly a source of much griping and low morale within the IT teams as the metrics were completely inappropriate.
    In my current team, we do have targets, but we reach them as a team, and are rewarded as a team – and among other initiatives, it’s helped to build a very strong team in a very short space of time.

  21. The incentive programmes in a lot of the most high pressure sales organisations often focus more on membership of some high achievers club, rather than a cash bonus. There may well be a bonus, or prize, but a top performing insurance or whatever salesperson is going to be earning enough to pay for their own holiday.

  22. A sales colleague at my previous place once worked for a place with a fairly extreme incentive scheme for the sales staff.
    There were N salespeople, and N company cars. At the end of each week who drove which car for the following week was worked out. The top performer got to drive the BMW (quelle surprise). The next N-2 got to drive identical OK cars – something like a Mondeo. The lowest performer _had_ to drive a bright orange Skoda, and this was in the days of the old Eastern European style Skodas. Nice.
    Another sales colleague worked at a place where your weekly performance determined where you worked the next week. You started off at the door end of a large open plan office, and after enough weeks of good performance you got to the other end. If you kept up the good work you were promoted to the next league and got an office. There were better and better offices so you could keep striving to climb the greasy pole. A different world, thankfully.

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