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	<title>Comments on: Has anyone read</title>
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	<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/</link>
	<description>coming home again</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-228531</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-228531</guid>
		<description>Nature imposes limits? Are you saying Nature is a tyrant? I say we overthrow it, then. ;)

Human creativity has no limits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nature imposes limits? Are you saying Nature is a tyrant? I say we overthrow it, then. <img src='http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Human creativity has no limits.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-228167</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-228167</guid>
		<description>As I said, it's a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind i.e. we have been breeding food species (and others) for ages, but nature imposes certain limits on what can breed with i.e. give genes to what.  GM allows us to bypass those limits, which is neat but possibly not always a good idea.

I don't see myself as a technophobe, although others may differ - I design computer programs for a living and have been in computing all my working life.  But I do think that science and technology are tools for civilisation and not ends in themselves.  We need to question constantly their direction, monitor their use and so on.  For example, DDT was a scientific wonder but had such bad side-effects that it had to be banned.

GM to boost yield will not solve the real problem, but might fool the public or even decision makers into thinking it has been solved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said, it&#8217;s a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind i.e. we have been breeding food species (and others) for ages, but nature imposes certain limits on what can breed with i.e. give genes to what.  GM allows us to bypass those limits, which is neat but possibly not always a good idea.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see myself as a technophobe, although others may differ - I design computer programs for a living and have been in computing all my working life.  But I do think that science and technology are tools for civilisation and not ends in themselves.  We need to question constantly their direction, monitor their use and so on.  For example, DDT was a scientific wonder but had such bad side-effects that it had to be banned.</p>
<p>GM to boost yield will not solve the real problem, but might fool the public or even decision makers into thinking it has been solved.</p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-228028</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 22:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-228028</guid>
		<description>Oooh, glow in the dark potatoes, scary! :D

I don't understand what is the fuss about GM and only see it as technofobia. People have been manipulating food since they could. Wheat didn't exist. Nothing that we eat is natural. Just going one step ahead in knowledge changes nothing, it can only improve our lives.

About the DDT:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2006/09/18/who17.xml</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooh, glow in the dark potatoes, scary! <img src='http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand what is the fuss about GM and only see it as technofobia. People have been manipulating food since they could. Wheat didn&#8217;t exist. Nothing that we eat is natural. Just going one step ahead in knowledge changes nothing, it can only improve our lives.</p>
<p>About the DDT:<br />
<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2006/09/18/who17.xml" rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2006/09/18/who17.xml</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-228024</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 20:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-228024</guid>
		<description>Oh, and the GM proponents say that GM is needed to boost yield so that there's enough food for a growing population.

As usual this is a scientific plaster over a non-scientific wound.  The real problem is growing population, not really food supply.  As well as food supply, a growing population will have increased demands for clean water, land, energy and so on.  The real fix will be curbing population growth, which is politically v. tricky.  Coming up with new miracle grow rice species X that grows 1.34 times as much as the previous best will only be a temporary solution as the population will grow again, and rice X will no longer be enough, so we need newer rice species Y and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and the GM proponents say that GM is needed to boost yield so that there&#8217;s enough food for a growing population.</p>
<p>As usual this is a scientific plaster over a non-scientific wound.  The real problem is growing population, not really food supply.  As well as food supply, a growing population will have increased demands for clean water, land, energy and so on.  The real fix will be curbing population growth, which is politically v. tricky.  Coming up with new miracle grow rice species X that grows 1.34 times as much as the previous best will only be a temporary solution as the population will grow again, and rice X will no longer be enough, so we need newer rice species Y and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-228023</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-228023</guid>
		<description>I think the problem with GM is a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind.

The genetic changes caused by breeding have been happening slowly since life began, and the physical limitations about what can mate with what means that the set of genetic changes possible between a parent and its child are relatively small.  The rest of the ecosystem has had time to adjust to all this, so nature is as we know it.

The genetic changes caused by GM are arbitrarily large.  You could (I think) take any gene and insert into any other young organism and so get glow in the dark potatoes etc.

The trouble is the size of the genetic change possible (not the change itself) - the rest of the ecosystem scrambles to catch up and can't do so very quickly.  Just like our bodies haven't had time to adjust from the scarcity of calories in our hunter-gatherer days to the (over-)abundance now in much of the developed world.  I.e. ecosystem as a whole is out of kilter for possibly a long time, which is generally a bad thing.

Also, the ecosystem catching up can produce unforeseen consequences.  The glow in the dark potatoes in the test field can spread their genes to any potato plant nearby, and if it's genetically advantageous (or at least not genetically a disadvantage) some other potato will start glowing in the dark.  I think it's basically a genie-out-of-the-bottle kind of argument.

I'm sure someone like Chris Haricot could give you more on this, but that's my view from a position of relative genetics ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the problem with GM is a difference of degree rather than a difference of kind.</p>
<p>The genetic changes caused by breeding have been happening slowly since life began, and the physical limitations about what can mate with what means that the set of genetic changes possible between a parent and its child are relatively small.  The rest of the ecosystem has had time to adjust to all this, so nature is as we know it.</p>
<p>The genetic changes caused by GM are arbitrarily large.  You could (I think) take any gene and insert into any other young organism and so get glow in the dark potatoes etc.</p>
<p>The trouble is the size of the genetic change possible (not the change itself) - the rest of the ecosystem scrambles to catch up and can&#8217;t do so very quickly.  Just like our bodies haven&#8217;t had time to adjust from the scarcity of calories in our hunter-gatherer days to the (over-)abundance now in much of the developed world.  I.e. ecosystem as a whole is out of kilter for possibly a long time, which is generally a bad thing.</p>
<p>Also, the ecosystem catching up can produce unforeseen consequences.  The glow in the dark potatoes in the test field can spread their genes to any potato plant nearby, and if it&#8217;s genetically advantageous (or at least not genetically a disadvantage) some other potato will start glowing in the dark.  I think it&#8217;s basically a genie-out-of-the-bottle kind of argument.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure someone like Chris Haricot could give you more on this, but that&#8217;s my view from a position of relative genetics ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-227530</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No I didn't. Never even heard of it. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No I didn&#8217;t. Never even heard of it. <img src='http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: tbird</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-227408</link>
		<dc:creator>tbird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-227408</guid>
		<description>Tim erad this years ago and in fact was talking to J&#38;J bout it last week when we were off the path.  He rates it and in fact it's on his Christmas list I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim erad this years ago and in fact was talking to J&amp;J bout it last week when we were off the path.  He rates it and in fact it&#8217;s on his Christmas list I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Jax</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-227211</link>
		<dc:creator>Jax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 17:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-227211</guid>
		<description>Haven't found anything about the lifting of the ban yet, but &lt;a href="http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/ddt/02.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;this site&lt;/a&gt; appears fairly clear on the history.  It does give some credit to her book, but also notes that the bans started some years before her book was published, so seems like there was other evidence against it too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haven&#8217;t found anything about the lifting of the ban yet, but <a href="http://www.epa.gov/history/topics/ddt/02.htm" rel="nofollow">this site</a> appears fairly clear on the history.  It does give some credit to her book, but also notes that the bans started some years before her book was published, so seems like there was other evidence against it too.</p>
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		<title>By: rosie</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-227209</link>
		<dc:creator>rosie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 17:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No, I've not read it, but somehow think I need to.
No, not pointless ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;ve not read it, but somehow think I need to.<br />
No, not pointless <img src='http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Leo</title>
		<link>http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/comment-page-1/#comment-227159</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Dec 2006 17:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liveotherwise.co.uk/makingitup/2006/12/03/has-anyone-read/#comment-227159</guid>
		<description>No. I've heard her ideas were partially to blame for the DDT ban - recently lifted. The DDT ban caused far too many malaria deaths. Not nice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No. I&#8217;ve heard her ideas were partially to blame for the DDT ban - recently lifted. The DDT ban caused far too many malaria deaths. Not nice.</p>
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